I just got asked for some advice about 3-betting and I started writing and ended writing a lot. I decided to post it as it might help some players and I'd also like some feedback on areas that I can improve on. I've also wanted to write a strategy post for a while and if anyone wants me to write my thoughts on any other areas please let me know.
Ok, firstly I target players with a VPIP between 17-22 and a PFR of 14-20. The better players to target are the ones that have these stats closer together. So, for example, a 17/14 player is a prime candidate, as is a 22/19 player, but a 22/14 player is slightly different. I would expect those types to call my 3-bet a little lighter, although I will still 3-bet them when I think it's appropriate.
The best times to 3-bet are when one of these types of players has raised in the cut-off or on the button. Therefore, another really important stat is the Attempt To Steal %. I recommend that you have it on your HUD display. Anything over 30% means they're raising very lightly when it's folded to them in the CO or OTB. It doesn't really matter too much if you're in the blinds or on the button yourself when you 3-bet them. I do try to be a little careful if there's a really loose player that's limped in. Even though the pre-flop raiser is probably trying to isolate, you don't want to 3-bet light only to have the loosey-goosey call.
The only other thing I'd say is try to use the VPIP/PFR and Steal Attempt stats in conjunction with one another. For example, if a 16/13 player open raises on the button and his steal % is 35% then I'm going to be 3-betting him a little lighter than I normally would. Also, if a 20/16 player opens UTG and his steal attempt is 22% then he's "spreading out" his raising across all positions and I'm going to lower my 3-betting standards to his UTG raises.
When I 3-bet, I like to make it around 3 times the original raise. However, I always try to make sure they haven't got odds to chase a set. The general rule is that if the raise is less than 10% of the smallest stack you have odds to chase for a set. So, for example, consider a $100NL game where we both have full stacks of $100. If someone makes it $4 pre-flop, then I'm going to make my 3-bet $14. This means he has to call an extra $10 and we don't have $100 in our stacks (after his raise goes in he has $96). It's only a small point, but one I try to stick to. If someone has already limped then I make it slightly more if I'm out of position (probably to $15 in the example). If someone raises and there's a cold-call then I make it 4 times the raise normally (or just over). It's also good to raise an extra BB or two when out of position.
If I get a call, then I'm going to fire out a continuation bet around 95% of the time. It's unnecessary to make it as large as a normal C-bet. If the pot was $28 I'd make my C-bet somewhere around 2/3 of the pot, so around $19-20. If they call, and I haven't hit, I'll give up on the turn. If they call and I have something then it's judgement on the turn - often the money's going to go in as the pot is so big already. If they raise then I have to consider a slowplayed AA/KK or a set and I play accordingly. It's amazing how often they fold though when you pick the right spots.
OK, so all that comes without even thinking about what types of hands to 3-bet with. To be honest, it really doesn't matter what you hold if it's a good spot. I do restrict my range though because you want a hand that can hit a great flop if they do call. Against these players I'll 3-bet with any pair, AK-AT, KQ-KJ, suited connectors down to about 54s, suited one gaps down to 75s. This doesn't mean that every time they open and I have one of these hands I'll 3-bet. I'll sometimes fold some of them, and I'll occasionally call with one of them. It's important to realise that you can't do it to them every time or it loses it's effect. Most people give you credit the first time you do it so I like to try and get one in with a weaker hand asap so that if I do hit a big pair they'll be less likely to believe me.
If I get 4-bet I tend to only carry on with AA and KK. The exception to this would be if there's some history between us and he's likely to be 4-betting me lighter than he might usually. Then I might carry on with AK and QQ too. It doesn't happen often though so I tend to restrict it to AA and KK. Whether I call or shove with these depends on the player and the situation. If I'm in position I tend to prefer a call. They'll usually bet/shove the flop and you can call. You have to have it in your mind that you're all-in no matter what though. You can't flat call with KK, see an A on the flop, and then fold. If you're going to do that then you should shove pre-flop instead. If I'm out of position I often prefer to just stick it in pre-flop. If your opponent is on AK, QQ or JJ then too many flops will scare them off. You could argue that this is too predictable and if I call a 4-bet they know I have AA or KK. This is true, but I don't think it matters at $100NL against 99% of the players. This is definitely an area I'll be working on as I move up limits but, for now, I don't think I need to vary my play for deception.
I will still 3-bet other types of players too. If the player is really tight then I'll only 3-bet AA-JJ and AK if he opens from UTG or UTG+1. If a tight player opens from the CO or OTB I'll probably include TT-99 and AQ into that. The tricky ones can be the super-LAGs, so the 35/25 types. They're obviously raising lightly but will also call your 3-bets and play back at you. I tend to only 3-bet them with a solid hand. If I have something like 88 in the BB I don't want to create a huge pot with a marginal hand. Most of these players are aggressive post-flop too so I prefer to see a relatively cheap flop and go from there. They'll bully you off quite a few hands but you'll get their money as long as you're patient. Having said that, I probably do 3-bet hands like AJ against them just because it figures to be so far ahead of their range and I prefer 3-betting than calling with a hand like that.
The last thing I'll mention is adjusting your 3-betting play once you've been to a few showdowns with people. I'll try and give some examples:
1. http://www.pokerhand.org/?1309034
I was really surprised when I saw this guy showdown KJs here. He plays about 26/21 and I didn't expect him to call my 3-bet with a hand like KJs. He's going to get himself into a lot of trouble against me if he's calling with a hand like that that can be dominated. Now, against him in the future I'm going to have to reconsider my 3-betting range. I may just call with small pairs now because I won't be able to fire twice with them unless I hit, and this hand shows that I'm not necessarily behind if he calls the flop. I'm also going to have to go to the felt against him with weaker hands. It actually makes him harder to play against and means that I'm going to experience higher variance against this particular player.
2. http://www.pokerhand.org/?1309044
This one didn't work but I should still be able to use it to my advantage. The original raiser now knows that I'll 3-bet him with a hand like 86s. This helps in a couple of ways. Firstly, he'll be more willing to play back at me or 4-bet with weaker hands than normal. Secondly, if I 3-bet and the flop comes low he can't rule out me having a big piece of it. I'll be able to use both of these facts to my advantage.
3. I can't find an example to show, but if I 3-bet and someone flat calls with AA-JJ I make a note and have to take into account next time we see a flop in a 3-bet pot. It's particularly important to know if they'll flat call with AA/KK.
The other thing to talk about is how to react if someone 3-bets you. That's a totally different situation though, and it's not one where I feel 100% confident with my play. Maybe I'll look into this next month and try a few things out.
9 comments:
Great work Ken!
This all makes very good sense. I certainly had it in mind that I should be targeting my Cbets at the better players, but is great to have you define it so clearly.
I guess that it is the likes of us, (2+2'ers and Cardrunners) that should be the focus!
I would love to see you write a piece on floating Cbets on the flop, both in terms of when to do it, and how to counter it.
Nice post, I think I got too nitty because I'm only 3-betting SCs about 20% of the time when the opportunity presents itself.
I'm also wondering if calling with SCs in position should be standard, I tend to fold the lower SCs. It's actually what the Ciaffone's 5/10 rule was intended for (if you have a drawing hand and your position is good, call every time it's under 5% of your stack and fold every time it's over 10%, the in between is speculative), and a standard pre-flop raise is only 4% of your stack.
Not sure how to call with these marginal hands OOP, like they do in high stakes videos. I guess they do it for deception and just increase the frequency to get more teaching material.
I also don't really like 3-betting PPs because you basically have nothing 7.5 out of 8.5 times post flop. JMan mentioned the same in his last video, why reduce your implied odds? Maybe lower ones are better because a 3 or a 5 on the flop rarely hits much of villain's range, and there's a bit of value lost to losing set under set.
The reason for calling with low pairs is to stack someone if you hit your set. That's great if they have a big hand themselves and will stack off, but the players I'm talking about are opening so lightly that you aren't going to be able to stack them a lot of the time if you hit your set. That's why I like to raise any pair against these guys. And it doesn't really matter that you'll only hit 1 in 8.5 times because it's the move that has the +EV rather than the hand - you could do it with any two cards and it would be +EV. I still cold-call small pairs against most opponents.
Malinois posted this link a while back: http://forumserver.twoplustwo.com/showflat.php?Cat=0&Number=4946669&page=0&fpart=all&vc=1
Read it and do all the things it says for your last 30K hands or whatever. Pokey mentions that you shouldn't be cold-calling that much with low suited connectors and I agree. Looking through my stats, I seem to have a leak in pots where I'm not the aggressor. Therefore I want to be raising my suited connectors, not calling with them.
Nice work! Definately precise and easy to follow as well as in depth. I love the 3bet but I find sometime I begin to use it to liberally, definately should be used in moderation and once you have lost respect you must be aware and tighten your range. Great piece and I look forward to the next. I too will be attempting to write some more theory aswell. Also your HUD numbers are spot on. These are the villians I love to come after as I can comfortably put them on a range though they may think I cant.
Well i have just got in 11.30 pm
what a nice suprise !! a guide to 3 betting . Well im gonna print this off and have a little practice tonight / this morning
thanks very much dodgy greatly appreciated
Nice peice , i will save it and read it over and over to get it to sink in. I genrally dont think about my bet sizes but thats a big mistake looking at this post. 1 question what stats do you have on your hud and why? I have it but your example above means iam missing some dead $ beacuse iam not using it right.
On my HUD I have VPIP, PFR, AF and hands. Then down the left I have Fold to C-bet, Call C-bet, Raise C-bet, Makes C-bet, BB/100. Then down the right I have Att to Steal, Fold BB to Steal, Cold Call, Check-raise Flop.
Hope that made sense! They're the ones I find myself looking for the most, and I tend to use them quite a lot of the time.
nice post Dodgyken, I'll need to reread it to totally grasp your concept.
Great post Dodgyken! I just started my own blog (you can find the link of Dice's page). I thought I had a good fundamental game, winning fairly consistently over the last 1.5 years, but always withdrawing due to necessity and not playing good poker, just better than other people's games.
I just started reading Dice's blog and stumbled upon your blog. So much good information! Dice has already helped me tremendously.
Do you care if I put all of the blogs from UF2B guys on my blog? I think they are such a good read and think it might be nice to let other people have a read who might stumble upon my blog.
Keep up the good work, again great post!
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